Four items about
Mormons appear below:
1 In
Search of a 2000-Year-Old
Man
61
2
Four 2000-Year-Old Men
Alive on Earth! 65
3
Mormon Logic Reaches
"Low
Depths"
66
4
Third Attempt to Find
2000-Year-Old Man 70
IN SEARCH OF A 2000-YEAR-OLD
MAN
B S
(Investigator 61, 1997
July)
Doug Davies is
searching
for a 2,000-year-old
man but didn't find him in South Australia.
The Bible
Dictionary
of the Mormon
religion under the heading "John" says:
We
especially have
a clarification of John 21:20-23, ascertaining
that John did not die, but has been allowed to remain on the earth as a
ministering servant until the time of the Lord's second coming.
The "John" here
referred to
is the Apostle John,
one of the twelve Apostles who preached with Jesus Christ almost 2,000
years ago!
Doug Davies is
a
Melbourne taxi driver, book
collector, member of the Victorian Skeptics and spare time researcher
into
cults. He has a special interest in Mormons and visited South
Australia
to search for Mormon books and question some of the local Mormons.
Mr Davies
Doctrine
and Covenants
(one of the
four Mormon standard books) says:
And
the Lord
said unto me: John,
my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it
shall be granted unto you.
And I said
unto him:
Lord, give unto me power
over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
And the Lord
said unto
me: Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I
come
in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and
people...
He shall
minister for
those who shall be
heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
(Doctrine
And
Covenants Section 7)
The teaching
about John is
necessary, explained
Mr Davies, because of a prophecy by Joseph Smith – prophet and founder
of Mormonism – which would otherwise
be a false
prophecy. The prophecy
was that a temple would be built in Missouri within the
generation
of 1832 on a property dedicated by Joseph Smith's son.
Mr Davies
cited Doctrine
And Covenants
again:
A
REVELATION of
Jesus Christ unto
his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their
hearts
and lifted their voices on high.
Yea,
the
word of
the Lord concerning his church, established in
the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by
the
mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand
upon
Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
Which
city
shall be built, beginning
at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the
western boundaries of the state of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand
of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
Verily this
is the
word of the Lord, that
the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning
at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be
raised
in this generation.
For verily
this
generation shall not pass
away until an house shall be built unto the Lord...
(Doctrine
And
Covenants Section 84)
The preamble to
Section 84
says this revelation
was given in September 1832.
Said Mr
Davies: "The
generation alive in
1832 has obviously died out – apparent proof that Joseph Smith is a
false
prophet.
"The answer
Mormon
missionaries in Melbourne
gave me is that the Apostle John is still alive and will live until the
Second Coming. The idea of a 2,000-year-old man is their loophole
to avoid refutation.
"They have not
been able
to build their temple
because the predicted piece of real estate belongs to an offshoot
from the Mormon mainstream."
Missionaries
at the
Mormon temple ["church" or "chapel"
not "temple" – Ed.] in Fulham Gardens
(Adelaide) were interviewed
for more information. They consulted a commentary on Doctrine And
Covenants
titled Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (1983).
The Manual
says:
The
Apostle
John ministered to the
Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in 1829 when he assisted Peter
and James in the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
In a
conference of the
Church on 3 June 1831,
the Prophet Joseph Smith taught concerning John's ministry: "John the
Revelator
was then among the Ten Tribes of Israel who had been led away by
Shalmaneser,
king of Assyria, to prepare them for their return from their long
dispersion."
Elder Heber
C. Kimball
recorded an appearance
of John the Revelator in the Kirtland Temple, as follows:
"When the
Prophet
Joseph had finished the
endowments...the beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the
Prophet
Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others." (pp. 17-18)
Doug Davies,
skeptical of
all this, said: "If
John attended a Mormon temple he'd have to be a Mormon. If the Mormons
are the truest and most accurate religion – which you claim to be –
John
would be a Mormon for that reason too.
"Good Mormons
are
supposed to marry and produce
children! They're also keen on genealogy.
"Where, then,
are all
the Mormons who trace
themselves to John?"
The
missionaries – both
of them Americans – argued that John might be an exception, he might be
single. Singleness
might be better for his function as a "ministering servant."
However,
they had no idea where John currently lives or what temple he
attends.
Nor did they know anyone who had seen John or heard anything about him.
Mr Davies
asked whether
John would have problems
with the pension department or renewing his drivers license or anything
else where age is relevant.
The
missionaries didn't
know and refused
to speculate. They said they know John is alive because they had prayed
and been assured in their hearts that Joseph Smith is a true shepherd
and
everything he taught is true.
Mr Davies
cited the
Bible, King James version,
John 21:23:
Then
went this
saying abroad among
the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not
unto
him, "He shall not die;" but, "If I will that he tarry till I come,
what
is that to thee?"
Said Mr Davies,
"The Bible
plainly says that
Jesus did NOT say 'He shall not die!'"
The
missionaries replied
that the Bible is
correct only to the extent it's accurately translated!
Afterwards Mr
Davies
commented: "Those were
the standard responses. Mormons say, 'I know it's true because I
prayed about it.' And when the Bible is in conflict with them they say
the Bible is wrong.
"In
Melbourne the
Mormons told me, 'You can't
meet John because you'd ask for a miracle and nobody gets saved by
miracles
but people get saved by faith.'"
FOUR
2000-YEAR-OLD MEN ALIVE
ON EARTH!
B Stett
( Investigator 65, 1999
March )
Mormons do not just
believe in ONE 2,000-year-old
man alive on Earth today, as reported in Investigator 61, but FOUR!
This came up
during
debate recently at the
Fulham Gardens church (Adelaide) where Doug Davies – a cult researcher,
book collector and skeptic – faced a semi circle of Mormons.
Investigator
61
reported on the Mormon
doctrine that the Apostle John – one of the 12 apostles who preached
with
Jesus almost 2,000 years ago – is still alive and that several early
leaders
of the Mormon religion claimed they met him in 1831.
The doctrine
is
important because of a prophecy
made by Joseph Smith the prophet and founder of Mormonism. The
prophecy
was about the building of a city and a temple:
Which
city
shall be built, beginning
at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the
western boundaries of the state of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand
of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
Verily this
is the
word of the Lord, that
the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints,
beginning
at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be
raised
in this generation.
For verily
this
generation shall not pass
away until an house shall be built unto the Lord…
(Doctrine
And
Covenants section 84)
The Mormons have
been
unable to do the building
job because the designated real estate is owned by a Mormon offshoot
sect.
Doug Davies
told Mormon
missionaries at Fulham
Gardens a year ago that the generation of 1832 has died out and that
Joseph
Smith therefore was a false prophet.
This led to
debate about
a 2,000-year-old
Apostle John whose supposed existence meant the generation of 1832 had
not died out!
All these
things were
reported in Investigator
61.
On January 31
this year
(1999) Mr Davies
returned to Fulham Gardens for more discussion about John but nobody
seemed
interested!
Sister
Worthen, a
missionary from America,
stated: "Everyone I know who prayed sincerely about whether the
Church's
teachings are true received the assurance that they are."
Mr Davies was
then led
outside and left alone.
A discussion
started
with a new convert who
happened to be nearby. Other Mormons then came out one after another
and
formed a semi circle.
These included
Shirralee
(former missionary
to the Philippines and now a college student), Robert Goddard (teacher
in computing) and Tony Russo.
Mr Davies
sought to
demonstrate by reference
to another doctrine – the doctrine of the "restoration" – that Mormons
contradict their belief in the Apostle John still being alive:
Mormons teach
that after
the death of the
original apostles of Jesus, Christianity became mixed with apostasy and
true doctrine was lost. This necessitated a "restoration" of the true
church
and of true doctrine and this took place about 1830 via Joseph Smith
and
the Book of Mormon.
Doug Davies
quoted a
1988 Mormon textbook
called Gospel Principles:
Because
of the
persecution, surviving
apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who
were
dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had
authority
to direct the various, scattered branches of the Church. The perfect
organization
of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more
error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the
Church
was complete…
There were
no apostles
or other priesthood
leaders with power from God and no spiritual gifts. (pp. 100-101)
Said Mr Davies,
"If John
were alive there couldn't
have been a complete 'destruction of the Church'. There would be no
need
of a 'restoration' since the true Church would be centred around John!"
Mr Goddard
replied, "To
keep the Church going
would have required a quorum of apostles. John did not have authority
to
do this by himself. If John was by himself he could be a special
witness
but could not operate in other areas."
Mr Davies
said, "But it
says that 'there
were NO apostles'. This implies that all the Apostles including John
were
dead.
Even clearer
is the
booklet Apostasy And
Restoration (1983):
As
Latter-day
Saints, we testify
that shortly after the death of the Lord's original twelve apostles,
there
came seventeen hundred years of apostasy and darkness. (p. 14)
The semicircle of
Mormons
pondered the seeming
contradiction: Is John alive and 2,000 years old, or dead?
Mr Davies
proceeded to
cite Deuteronomy 18:
When
a prophet
speaketh in the name
of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the
thing
which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it
presumptuously.
He then asked:
"Based on
this do you agree that
if Joseph Smith made any prophecies which did not come true he would be
a false prophet?"
The Mormons
refused to
answer except for
Shirralee who said, "That all depends."
Mr Davies next
quoted
the prophecy from Doctrine
and Covenants about New Jerusalem and the temple to be built within
the generation of 1832.
Said Mr
Davies, "There
is no one left alive
from 1832. Not even the Apostle John as we just read. Therefore Joseph
Smith failed the test in Deuteronomy 18. Therefore Mormonism is
not
a restoration of the true church but the product of a false prophet!"
Shirralee
responded,
"There are three Nephites
who are still alive!"
"Nephites"
were American
Indians who Jesus
visited – so claims the Book of Mormon – after his death and
resurrection.
Jesus supposedly changed three of these Nephites and made them
indestructible.
Shirralee
referred to 3
Nephi chapter 28
in the Book of Mormon:
Therefore,
more
blessed are ye,
for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the
doings of the father unto the children of men, even until all things
shall
be fulfilled… (v. 7)
And ye shall
never
endure the pains of death…
(v. 8)
And now I,
Mormon,
make an end of speaking
concerning these things for a time. Behold, I was about to write the
names
of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade;
therefore
I write them not, for they are hid from the world. (vs. 24-25)
And behold
they will
be among the Gentiles,
and the Gentiles shall know them not. They will also be among the Jews,
and the Jews shall know them not. And it shall come to pass, when the
Lord
seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered
tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people,
and
shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls… (v. 27-29)
Yea even
among the
Gentiles shall there be
a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
(v.
32)
Therefore,
that they
might not taste of death
there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not
suffer
pain or sorrow save it were for the sins of the world. (v. 38)
And in this
state they
were to remain until
the judgment day of Christ; … (v. 40)
This chapter of
the Book
of Mormon is
set in the year 35 AD and therefore implies that there are three
two-thousand-year-old
men alive on Earth today aside from the Apostle John!
The alleged
existence of
these 2,000-year-old
men means that the generation of 1832 has not died out and therefore
Joseph
Smith is saved from being a false prophet!
Mr Davies
referred to
the Mormon Church's
emphasis on marriage, children and genealogy and asked: "Where are all
the Mormons who trace their genealogy to John or to the three Nephites?"
The Mormons
did not
reply.
Mr Davies then
reasoned
that three or four
2,000-year-old men each with a ministry to "all nations, kindreds,
tongues
and people" would be adequate for a "quorum" around whom the Church
could
exist.
With such an
impact
there could not have
been a total apostasy during which "the destruction of the Church
was complete."
Said Mr
Davies, "A
restoration by Joseph
Smith therefore seemed unnecessary!"
Shirralee
promised to
research the points
discussed.
MORMON
LOGIC
REACHES
"LOW DEPTHS"
Frank Russo
(Investigator 66, 1999
May)
How low do the
depths of
implausibility plummet?
The Mormons
believe in
four 2,000-year-old
men (Investigator 65 18-23) whose existence saves Joseph Smith from
being
a false prophet despite prophesying the building of a certain temple
within
one generation of 1832 the construction of which has not happened!
Wouldn't the
four
alleged oldies be of the
generation of the first century and not of the 19th?
Furthermore,
Joseph
Smith predicted: "For
verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be
built
unto the Lord…" He's talking about a generation which could potentially
"pass away" but won't pass away whereas the four oldies have
immortality
and therefore can't ever "pass away"!
If the
existence of
these oldies is used
to salvage Joseph Smith's reputation we need to meet them and have
medical
specialists confirm their age.
THIRD
ATTEMPT TO FIND 2,000-YEAR-OLD
MAN
B S
(Investigator 70, 2000
January
A third
attempt by Doug
Davies to find the
Apostle John – claimed by Mormons to be alive and well and 2,000 years
old – failed in November.
Doctrine
and Covenants,
a book which
to Mormons ranks with the Book of Mormon and the Bible as inspired
writings,
says:
And I
[Apostle
John] said unto him:
Lord, give me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto
thee.
And the Lord
said unto
me: Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I
come
in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and
people.
(Section 7)
This doctrine of
John still
being alive is important
because in 1832 Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, predicted a
temple
would be built on a designated plot of land in Missouri within one
"generation".
(See details in Investigator 61 and 65)
The temple,
however,
cannot be built because
the land is owned by a branch of Mormonism separated from the main
branch.
The main
branch,
officially called Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, argues that with John still alive
the generation of 1832 has not died out and the prophecy is not
refuted.
Using the words of Mr Davies in a previous article:
"The
idea of a
2,000-year-old man
is their loophole to avoid refutation."
Recently Mr
Davies made his
third search for
John. This was a trip to the Family History Centre at the Mormon chapel
in Modbury (Adelaide) to use the genealogical records.
Mormons
practice
"baptism for the dead".
Living Mormons do family research to identify their ancestors and then
get baptized on their behalf – an action that, they believe, improves
the
ancestors' chance of salvation.
"Tony", an
elder of the
"Melchizedek Priesthood",
explained: "Baptism for the dead is not a sure thing. In the
judgment
they will still have to decide whether they accept the baptism or not."
Mr Davies
summarized Mormon teaching
about John the Baptist and asked whether genealogical records could
identify
John or at least John's living relatives. After all, unless there
is tangible proof of John being alive we can't use John to salvage the
prophecy regarding the generation of 1832!
[Note:
Mormons
also believe three 2000-year-old "Nephites" are still alive. See Investigator
65. However,
the points in the present article about John would apply to the
Nephites
too – which is: "Where are they?"]
Tony explained
that
Mormons alive now could
not trace themselves back to John because genealogical records rarely
go
back further than the 16th century.
He added:
"John being
alive is never discussed
at meetings. It is too controversial and would raise questions people
would
speculate about."
Mr Davies
replied that
John, if alive, could
give decisive evidence to confirm the Mormon claim to being the true
faith.
As a living witness from the 1st century, and close friend of Jesus
Christ,
John the Apostle could at one stroke confirm the correctness of
Mormonism.
Besides, confirmation of John is needed to save Joseph Smith from being
a false prophet regarding the 1832 generation!
Tony replied
that there
are living prophets
today – including in that very chapel at Modbury – whom we could ask
and
who would confirm that everything the Church teaches is true.
Mr Davies
replied that
to ask a Mormon "prophet"
whether Mormonism is true is like asking the Pope whether Catholicism
is
the true faith. The Pope would say he's from a line of popes going back
to the Apostle Peter. But if John could be found, he'd confirm who
really
has the truth.
Tony repeated
that the
16th century limit
to genealogical research would prevent Mormons tracing themselves back
to John the Apostle.
However, what
about John
the Apostle himself?
John attends Mormon meetings (Investigator 61 p. 55) and also "shall
prophesy
before nations, kindreds, tongues and people." [See above]
Therefore, if
Mormons
are the true church
John would be a Mormon and, like all good Mormons, do his own genealogy
which should then be in the genealogical records of the Mormon
religion.
Indeed John's genealogy would stand out as being the only genealogy to
go back 2,000 years!
This point was
put to
"John" [not the Apostle
but another John] in the Family Research room at the Modbury chapel.
A dozen people
were
using computers and microfiche.
Filing cabinets of copies of British census records lined one wall and
a shelf of books on genealogy extended along another wall above the
computers.
John – himself
not a
Mormon but a volunteer
worker there for ten years – explained that all over
the world
church registers
are being copied and recorded on the International Genealogical Index.
The IGI already has 700 million names.
However, he
knew of no
way of using genealogy
to find the Apostle John and he knew of no genealogy that went back
2000
years.
Said
John the volunteer:
"I only come here
because I love genealogy. I don't believe the doctrines. I think
they teach a lot of crap."
